Have you read Part 1 of The Queen's Vow? If so... what are your thoughts? If you have not completed Part 1, you can still participate today by sharing your initial impressions (and expectations) of both Isabella and the book itself.
And for comparison, have you read other works featuring Isabella?
What were your impressions of Isabella before you began reading the book? Do you think your opinion of her may change?
What of the relationships of the family of Isabella? Between Alfonso and Isabella, between Enrique and Isabella?
What about Enrique and Juana of Portugal, and their daughter? Do you question the legitimacy?
Did you find anything lacking in the storytelling of Part 1? Something you wanted to read a little more about? I remember reading of Isabella's mother (and her mental stability); and also a previous read showed Isabella as feeling destined to marry Ferdinand from an early age so this telling was a little different.
Marie's thoughts:
For the most part, I have viewed Isabella as an over-zealous religious fanatic because of the persecution she perpetrated. There was no tolerance on her part, but the times were so different during her reign. The level of piety was directly related to how she lived (and salvation at death), so a certain amount of understanding of many factors needs to be developed before laying judgement on Isabella.
I had previously read Castile for Isabella by Jean Plaidy, and By Fire, By Water by Mitchell James Kaplan. These novels have helped shape my opinion of Isabella, but now Gortner's will help to humanize her a bit more as it gives me some understanding behind Isabella's nature.
Michelle's thoughts:
I too read By Fire, By Water and that book portrayed Isabella in a very bad light, which was to be expected based on the point of view it was told from...the very people Isabella persecutes with her expulsion of the Jews.
I have read the entire book already because I was on a book tour for it, but I will stick to the first section to go along with the read-along. I found it fascinating that it seems all (or most) of the great queens seem to find their way to the throne having gone through great peril. Isabella lived a very precarious period under her half brother, Enrique, while her brother was forming a rebellion. In the book, her loyal companion likens it to divine providence that things continue to go in Isabella's favor. Perhaps it's true. What Gortner does so well is bringing across the human side of these great women. One can't help but feel a connection with Isabella.
What I found ironic was the fact that Isabella and Fernando end up naming one of their daughters, Juana. I realize that Fernando's mother's name was also Juana, but to use the name of her stepmother, Enrique's dreadful queen, seemed odd. And yes, I do question the legitimacy of Juana and Enrique's daughter, although I have not read very much in regards to the history of this subject.
I do hope that you're enjoying this wonderful book!
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The next discussion post: July 14, Saturday.
Scheduled to Read to page 215 (end of part II)
Gortner's writing style always makes me breeze through his works, so don't feel guilty if you read ahead (like me!). Just jot down some notes so you'll have them ready for the scheduled discussion posts.
Don't forget, the author C.W. Gortner will be visiting the discussion posts at his leisure, so feel free to ask any questions you may have in the comments. There will also be a small giveaway at the end of the read along for the most active participant.
I also find the naming of babes interesting! The family of Isabella has lots of Juan/Juana variables ;)
ReplyDeleteAnd going through Isabella's younger years as Gortner does lets us grow with her and help us to understand her decision process. We'll see how that changes as religion comes into play later in the book.
When I first began reading HF I thought it was not very creative of authors to use the same names over and over, and then I found they were (mostly) real people and also that during the times people generally named their children after the ruling monarchs. It was also not very common to use a 'creative' name.
DeleteHello.
ReplyDeleteI know very little about Isabella. The images that I have are from novels that I have read about Katherine of Aragon which touched briefly on katherine's childhood. I have envisioned her as strong, warrior queen; fanatical in her religious beliefs and also very cold in personality. I thought the prologue was powerful because just from the first few pages, Isabella was not just those things any longer. It brought her to life for me. Now I felt emotion for this child and what she must of endured and throughout part I, I found myself absorbed in her feelings and seeing how all these events and people in her life would shape her. I especially thought the scene when Enrique tells her of the marriage he is planning with her and Giron was important because she showed such courage standing up to him and Villena when she said, "I am an infanta of Castille. Did you think to barter me like a cheap coin for your vanities?" And as Enrique responds, he is "trembling." I think that gave us a foreshadowing of what she would become later in
the novel.
I loved the descriptions of the Spanish court. The pageantry with the dresses and makeup described in such detail that I could see it. Right now I can imagine Queen Juana in my mind so clearly with her beautiful auburn hair, glittering jewels, heavy makeup, and exquisite gowns.
I agree with your assessment of the writing of Gortner! Very detailed without overloading the reader. Very well done.
DeleteAlthough I can empathize with Isabella at this point, I wonder how I will feel when the religious persecution begins.
I have not read any other novels with Isabella as the main character, though she has been featured, or at least mentioned in every read on Catherine of Aragon and some other novels, like Mitchell James Kaplan's BY FIRE, BY WATER. She is, of course, featured in C. W. Gortner's novel on her daughter, Juana, THE LAST QUEEN. My impression of Isabella has been a strong, fiercly religious monarch who is both wise and diplomatic, and loves her husband though he is sometimes unfaithful. I'm excited to learn more about her--especially her early life.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad to find an easy relationship between Isabella and her brothers, though they end up in separate factions. Her older half-brother surprised me, as he was painted slightly negatively early in the story, but seemed to somewhat redeem himself--though not completely. I feel there are things he could have done differently to be a better king and brother. I would definitely question the legitimacy of Enrique's daughter with the information provided, especially as wide-spread as the rumors had gotten.
With what I know of Isabella and the setting/era, I feel the author covered a lot of bases and explained suscintly the atmosphere of the court and the country. I enjoyed Isabell's meeting with Ferdinand and am glad she wasn't depicted as over-the-top in love with him at first sight, but let her go of a bit of her stiffness when with him. I've always found Gorter's novels to be balanced regarding the motives and actions of characters.
Yes, I was surprised as the 'courtship' of Isabella and Ferdinand, as I was under the impression that Isabella was in love with him since she was four.
DeleteIsabella is much more likable in this novel(so far) as well as Ferdinand, and Enrique overall seemed like an epic fail.
I'm kind of glad I haven't read the Plaidy trilogy yet...I tend to judge other books based on hers and it's not really fair.
DeleteI have only read the first one, three years ago, but I do remember the specific 'pre-destined' feeling of Isabella had for Ferdinand, and how her mother was portrayed as very unstable.
DeleteI have only read to part I, so I am very interested in finding how how her religious beliefs develop. Up to this point there hasn't been too much emphasis on religion, but there defintely has been clues to her faith. here was a part where they were at mass and Isabella was noticing how the women were being disrespectful talking and gossiping right in front of the priest. Also she has mentioned God's will a few times in referring to the rightful sucession of monarchs and God 's wrath as well. I can't to read how those beliefs become stronger.
ReplyDeleteYes, the religion part is eased in, yet we know it will certainly figure in later.
DeleteI agree, Marie. I have next to no prior knowledge of the persecutions under Isabella so I may be in for a shock-and I as well wonder how that is going to change my opinion of her. I am guessing it will leave me very conflicted at the least.
ReplyDeleteI will have to recommend By Fire By Water, I loved that novel. It paints a much different picture of Isabella, but is told from a different view point as well.
DeleteThank you for the rec, Marie! I will definitely put that on my list.
DeleteI haven't read any other books about Isabella, but I am familiar with her reign from history classes. I do enjoy the humanizing nature of Gortner's writing and I think it really shines through here. I do have suspicions of Enrique's daughter's legitimacy.
ReplyDeleteI definitely was not the full story of Ferdinand and Isabella during my school years. The only part I remember that relates to them is the Nina, Pinta and the Santa Maria. Sad, isn't it?
DeleteBetter than my school years, Marie -- I knew Columbus was from Spain, but nothing about the monarchs. I'd love to go back and slap my 10th grade World History teacher for his lesson on Henry VIII as well.
DeleteIn reality he was born in Genoa, which is now in Italy, but yes Columbus was Spanish. I took a history course in college about Spain as part of a minor in Spanish that I ended up dropping in favor of Philosophy.
DeleteI know some thought that Gortner glossed over the religious fervor of her time period, but I think that's been talked about too much and its good to see a different side of things.
A lot of people do not realize that he was Spanish. It does make sense since he did go to the Spanish monarchy to back his expedition. I honestly think they taught us back in the day that he was Italian.
DeleteI also agree that the religious fervor has been done and done. Shoot, I'm getting enough religious fervor in our present time. I certainly don't want to be reading it constantly in books. ;O)
Arleigh, I agree with the relationships of her brothers. I felt like that put another human touch in the novel. I, at times felt myself pitying Enrique. He was a weak failure as a king, but in the novel at times I was touched by what appeared to be a genuine affection for his half siblings.
ReplyDeleteI agree Christina.. It does seem like Enrique tried at points to welcome his half-siblings. I was very wary when they were sent for, and was even more wary when Alfonso was kept in separate quarters.
DeleteI think so too, Serena. It is fascinating to me how he is able to humanize his characters in such a way that they prey on our emotions. He truly has a gift.
ReplyDeleteChristina, have you read Gortner's previous novels? Isn't is amazing how he writes? I love his writing style. I was really touched by The Last Queen, and I feel now I should revisit it after reading this story on Isabella.
ReplyDeleteI have read Confessions and loved it. I have not yet read The Last Queen, but I will be getting it as soon as I finish this and I am excited for it too. I just adore his writing. I just cannot get over how absorbed and connected I feel to not only the characters, but the setting and time period as well. This is my first time participating in a read along and I am enjoying it so much. Thank you for hosting this. I don't have anyone close to me who reads so this is such a wonderful outlet , as well as spreading the word for such a great book.
DeleteI think Gortner excels at writing female leads. I liked his Tudor books, but not as much as the ones on CDM and Juana. He's one of the few male authors who gets it right :)
DeleteI just told this to my husband! (not that he cares, but he endures hearing about what I am reading, lol)
DeleteI thought the same thing when I read Confessions and I am having those same feelings now. It may be wrong of me, but I usually shy away from male authors in that area because the emotion just isn't quite there for me. Gortner truly has the gift there. You all have me very excited to read The Last Queen.
The Last Queen remains one of my favorites. I really love Juana of Castile. One of the historical women I most admire.
DeleteChristina, I also have a tendency to shy away from male authors. I find a lot of their writing to be chauvinistic or too sexual or crude. (I am making an over generalization, of course.) It is nice to know that we have an historical author such as Gortner that we can rely on for a great story.
DeleteThank you to everyone for reading along! This is great fun for me, very interesting to hear people's reactions (and a little intimidating :) I'm available for any questions; right now, I'd say that part of my goal in writing this book was to present Isabella as a human being, with both her flaws and her strengths. I think we tend to pigeonhole these powerful women of the past into cliches; we forget that they, too, are fallible. As you're discovering, Isabella rose to power from a difficult childhood, in a tumultuous age; she's shaped as much by her experiences as her era.
ReplyDeleteI've seeded clues in the novel about her religious inclinations; all my research indicates that the rather extreme piety we associate with her (the Franciscan habit under her gown, the many hours of prayer, the intransigence) came later in her life, as a result of losses she suffered following 1492, which I covered in my first book, THE LAST QUEEN. While Isabella was, of course, very devout, in ways we might find frightening, in THE QUEEN'S VOW, she is also still a young woman, caught between doubt and desire, contending with life's challenges. And yet, I believe by this point in the narrative you've already met Torquemada and have begun to see his influence over her . . .
Her half brother Enrique is a fascinating character in history: he was ill-suited to be king, but I hope some of his personal gentility comes through. He loved animals with a compassion rarely seen in those days and it was his misfortune to find himself among such powerful personalities as his wife Queen Juana, Villena, Carillo, and Isabella. He would have been content to never wear a crown, as he himself says in the book.
I hope you continue to enjoy the book, and look forward to continuing this dialogue with you. Thank you so much for your support and enthusiasm for my work. I'm very honored.
Thank you for adding your thoughts, Christopher!
DeleteCan you shed any light on the 'madness' that seemingly touched Isabella's daughter Juana and Isabella's mother? Do you think that perhaps it was apocryphal?
Do you have a personal opinion as to the legitimacy of the beltraneja?
Oops! I deleted my own comment by mistake. Sorry, here it is again (I'm such a clutz)
ReplyDeleteHi Marie,
I think Isabella's mother probably suffered from some form of manic depression, which of course was not even a known diagnosis in 15th century Spain. Juana may have had the same illness, to some extent; it is known that the severity of manic depression, particularly its onset, can be triggered by emotional stress; Juana certainly had her share of that! It's so tough to say, as mental distress can be caused by so many different circumstances. In Juana's case, it was the perfect storm. In her grandmother's situation, certainly, she showed plenty of symptoms that would indicate some level of severe depression.
I do have an opinion about la Beltraneja's legitimacy but if it's okay, I'm going to keep it private, for now :) I don't want my thoughts to influence yours on Isabella's opinion. (Lots of room for conjecture, here!) I will say this much: I'd love to see a genetics test run on la Beltraneja, if her body could be exhumed.
I am looking forward to reading the rest of the story (I would plow through it if not for the read along). I really enjoy how you can vividly portray your characters.
DeleteI am also eager to see how the character of Fernando plays out.
You have me intrigued re: Genetics test!
I've got to wonder, perhaps a novel on her could be a unique possibility.. for someone..
Can we get that body exhumed?! I wonder if people have pushed for that kind of testing posthumously to determine the truth of paternity just to clear up history.
DeleteI love that idea, Serena!
DeleteI really enjoyed the scene where Isabella is in the library and pondering the scope of the world and new lands yet unexplored.
ReplyDeleteMe too, Arleigh. It was great foreshadowing on what's to come.
DeleteYes, he is doing a great job of sprinkling in clues on how her character will develop.
DeleteI wanted to mention Alfonso and how unfortunate his story was. Is it known whether his cause of death was poison or the plague? From the novel it appeared that poison was of course thought initially due to the power struggle between Enrique and the factions that wanted Alfonso as king. But it seemed that his demise was as a result of the plague. I am not sure if I grasped that part correctly or not, so I would love to hear any thoughts.
ReplyDeleteThe way Gortner tells it, it really seems like it was an illness and not poison. Either way, it was a very sad conclusion to what could have been a promising life. Imagine if he reigned in Isabella's stead? What would have become of the Spanish Inquisition?
DeleteHi everyone-Just joining in here:) Ok so I will really have to control my writing here since I couldn't stop myself from reading a bit further..!
ReplyDeleteSo far, I LOVE Isabella. It's my first time reading about her so everything she does so far portrays her as an angel-love everything about her. And Ferdinand too so far seems perfect for her- I loved that he wrote back all those letters. Even though he was so young, he was such a gentleman. I also find that at some points Enrique really felt for his siblings- but that queen of his OMG! And I really believe the baby was not Enrique's. I love Gortner's style it just flows and not one dull moment (I guess that's why I can't keep to the schedule!) Oh, and I'm glad the subject of whether it was illness or poison that killed Alfonso..I personally understood that it was poison- 'cause I don't recall reading anyone else from their immediate circle also being affected? I found Alfonso's death so sad. The two of them were so close and needed each other. He was too young. Anyway I am loving this book.
It is wonderful to read about Isabella in this light, isn't it? And I think Gortner really touched on the true romance between Isabella and Fernando. Yes, it is difficult not to read ahead. As I mentioned above, Gortner's The Last Queen is one of my favorites. The Queen's Vow will only be my second read of his books so now I'm really wanting to pull out his Catherine de Medici book and read it (finally)!
DeleteWow, thank you so much for all the kind words. So, as far as Alfonso's death is concerned, it really isn't known what he died of.
ReplyDeleteAt first, I thought he must have caught the plague: whenever a royal person died young and unexpectedly, without some obvious cause like, say, a fall from a horse or sword thrust, poison was always suspected, so I didn't pay it any credence. Severe food poisoning also seemed a likely culprit; but his symptoms, which are taken directly from actual sources, are rather odd. He was paralyzed, had a blackened tongue: it seemed suspicious to me. I consulted my doctor, who always helps me with medical questions. Basically, if it was plague, he went very quickly, but the symptoms do match. Poison, in this case, could also be a likely culprit. But, how? Who? Their route was suddenly changed because of plague in Avila; no one knew the prince would end up in that particular house at that particular time, right?
So, I left it deliberately ambiguous, as it must have appeared at the time, because no matter the cause, my focus was on Isabella's reaction. She would have seen it as an act of God and she did in fact retreat to the convent to deliberate because of it.
I've just read the first three chapters but wanted to chime in to say I'm thoroughly impressed with CW Gortner's research and style. I love the way he's setting up Isabella's transformation from diffident, principled, even sensitive princess to the headstrong regent that I know she will become. Her relations with Beatriz, Alfonso, her mother, Archbishop Carrillo, her (so far distant) uncle Enrique, etc. are beautifully rendered and the scenes are vivid and compelling. Clearly, this is a credible account, and I enjoy seeing Isabella through the filter of a mind and perspective different from my own.
ReplyDeleteIt's so great to get the opportunity to read about a historical figure from two different author points of view. It gives us readers two perspectives in which to look at her/him and thus bring that figure together as a whole.
DeleteI meant, **brother Enrique** of course!
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