July 17, 2012

Part 3: The Queen's Vow Discussion Post

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Part III: The Double-edged Sword 1474-1480 (pages 219-299)

This section opens up with Isabella finally obtaining the crown of Castile. Her husband is away, and Isabella goes through the motions of becoming Queen without Fernando at her side. This does not bode well when he returns from Aragon, as we see Fernando green with envy, or angry at her advisers, or upset that Isabella is not a whimpering female willing to wait for Fernando's approval.

As we turn the pages, we see Isabella grow confident and struggle less with major decisions, and although she adores Fernando, she also adores Castile. If she had to choose, who will she choose? The same could be said for Fernando: if he had to choose Aragon over Isabella, what would his choice be?

The apparition-like figure in white makes an appearance when Isabella is crowned..is she hallucinating? Is she touched by God? It can only be a sign of things to come. And we learn Fernando is not faithful to Isabella, how has this changed your view of him? Several of our readers here had expressed a liking for him, is that still the case?

After reading the Tudor novels featuring Catherine of Aragon, Isabella's daughter, we have had visions of Isabella in our heads of the fearless warrior of Isabella fighting the moors and birthing her many babies. Part III does indeed have Isabella running off into the middle of conflict. Does this telling change your previous views of Isabella, and of her marriage?

What if the first person narrative was taken away and Gortner used a third person perspective? Do you think there would be more depth to the story if Gortner had that ability?

"Would I never be satisfied by the efforts of anyone, most of all my own self?"


In her own words, Isabella laments over her self expectations and those she sometimes irrationally sets to others. Do you feel this is a failure of hers, or does it make her a stronger monarch?

Isabella felt a shift in her marriage after the stand-still with Portugal. Do you feel her relationship with Fernado changed after this event?

What is your opinion of Carrillo? Were you disappointed with him, or did you see his perfidy coming?

As the story shifted from gaining the throne and subduing the nobles to church reform, were you surprised to find Isabella so lax toward the Jewish community and loath to bring upheaval to her newly won subjects?

Heirs, printing presses and eclipses...what was your favorite surprise from this part of the story?

For those who have read The Last Queen, what did you think of the (prophetic?) birth of Juana? (my favorite scene).

The section ends with the beginning of the Spanish Inquisition. Were you surprised at Isabella's reluctance (as I was), and Fernando's support of the religious purging?

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Now that we've read three parts of Gortner's novel, we need to begin to gather our final thoughts for the discussion post this Saturday. We have all been applauding Gortner's writing, the story, our awe for the characters. Let's get deeper, and see if we can find something that irked us. Was there anything in the story that bothered you? Was there anything missing? Is there something you would have preferred to be explored deeper? Which 'Part' was your favorite? Save those final thoughts for Saturday! And get your reviews ready, you can post your review links on the final discussion post as well.

23 comments:

  1. I really enjoyed these sections that showed the human side of this marriage -- even though it is love -- there are weaknesses in any man that can lead them to stray and in Fernando's case, he is no different. Isabella has high standards for herself and as someone who has high standards of her own, it is not surprising to me that she would have high standards for those around her.

    It's been a bit since I've read the novel, but I do like the environment surrounding Juana's birth, who appears in The Last Queen.

    I prefer the first person narrative Gortner uses because it humanizes a royal figure who was often thought to be overly religious and fanatical.

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    1. I was expecting Fernando to stray since I remembered the instances from other reads. It was well done how Gortner showed how Isabella grappled with the realization of Fernando's infidelity.

      I agree the first person is the best to use when attempting to humanize a main character, I will always wonder though how much was 'true' however.

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  2. At this point in the book, I am surprised with Isabella's leniency with Jews and conversos as well as her dislike of Torquemada, but this is just conjecture on my part from insinuations garnered from previous reads. It does remind my of how Gortner characterized Catherine de Medici--unlike any other I'd read (in a good way). I like that he's giving her the benefit of the doubt.

    I do have a question about the eclipse...is this the same one Richard III saw the day his wife died? I always find it fascinating to read about reactions to scientific phenomenons during the medieval era.

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  3. Hi! Not sure about the eclipse being the same one that Richard III saw (though I love the thought!) but that scene is based on the actual event. There was an eclipse that day and Isabella was dismissive of the superstition around it.

    As far as her leniency goes, I want to reassure you that I was as surprised as everyone else when I first started researching this aspect of her life. But the facts support my interpretation. Isabella did delay implementing the papal edict authorizing her to establish the Inquisition, for nearly four years, despite repeated pressure from Torquemada and Fernando. She did establish a program of spiritual re-education in the hope of finding a peaceful solution, as she blamed corruption within the Church for the conversos' "laxity" in worship; and she did, in fact, agonize over persecution tactics, as evidenced by correspondence that went between her and the Ecumenical Council she set up to investigate the situation. None of this is made up: what is fictionalized is my extrapolation of how it may have felt to be in her shoes. I do not believe she took the arrest and torture of her subjects lightly; I do think she acted, however, as she felt her duty to God ordained.

    This is a very tough area for many of us to grasp, but to Isabella, salvation of the soul was paramount. She believed in a vengeful God and she believed in her divinely appointed duty to save her subjects from damnation. It's not pretty, nor does it mesh with her other, more exemplary qualities, but it an important part of her character. What I wanted to do was show how her doubt eventually becomes resolve, based on the experiences and advice that will shape her.

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  4. Forgot to add, thank you for all your terrific comments. I'm really enjoying this read-a-long!

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  5. I feel a bit disappointed in Isabella, yet understand that her decisions ultimately come from her faith. I am trying to realize that it was a different place in time and we cannot compare our worlds today. Initially, I felt that she weakened under the influence of Fernando and Torquemada. But the more I think about it I do believe it was her faith that made the decision for her and not her buckling under the influence, which has not been in her character to do. I think attempting to understand her faith is has allowed me to understand more then what I ever thought I could.

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  6. I also enjoy reading in the first person. Most of my favorite novels read that way. I just feel a more emotional connection that way.

    I thought the suffering Isabella endured with the infidelities was written well. It gave us that human touch. It didn't really make me dislike F though. I think I am somewhat immune to royals not being faithful and expect it, however I still feel badly for the suffering caused by it.

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  7. Along with Arleigh, I do feel surprised about the attitude of Isabella at first as she considers whether or not to persecute her people. I guess I do not have enough historical background to understand why the Moors caused such a problem, but I guess they encroached on their territory. I have no clue as to that and wish I had a better understanding in that regard.
    I am trying to wrap my head around the concept that Isabella felt it was her divine duty to cleanse her realm of Jews, and that we should make allowances for her.

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    1. I agree, Marie. I am unsure of that period in history, but it does not appear that the Jews were a threat in any way. It was pointed out by Carrillo in a are that they were prosperous and none were laborers, but I never read anything here to indicate they were a threat to the realm. As for the Moors, I just understood that they were a threat to their lands-but I cannot understand about the Jews. The fact that she was grappling with this and appeared to believe in the novel it was wrong, but still did it disappoints me. I am very conflicted, but open to thought because I really want to understand. I suppose they thought that not having a united front in terms of religion would weaken them in the eyes of France, England, etc. The strength, power, growth, stability o their realm was more important than the people and maybe they saw the Jews as a threat there. Just rambling thoughts here, I honestly have no idea.

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    2. Thanks Christina for your thoughts, and no problem on the rambling, which you aren't =)
      I find it interesting that Gortner also mentioned the fact that the money was an issue, using an age old rumor about the Jewish hoarding money etc.
      Following that train of thought, were Isabella and Fernando also eager to control the financial aspect that the Jewish people seemed to have some control over?.....
      And did Isabella really have visions for a more unified country religion-wise, or was it all about the money?

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    3. Thanks, Marie. :) That is a great thought. I am wondering that as well now. The way Torquemada just raged about them as far as their prosperity (I meant Torque, not Carrillo in above post) He and Fernando had such anger and hatred toward them and money seemed to be a huge issue there. There seemed to be jealousy too. Really gets me thinking....Maybe both were factors.

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    4. Yes I agree! You reminded me, as you bring up jealousy, as I was reading more last night I almost feel as if Isabella may be a little vengeful.
      But perhaps this is Gortner trying to give us a dimensional and flawed character ;)

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  8. I felt the same! I also wonder how much they profited in the end from the Jewish people. They had to profit immensely taking their wealth.

    It makes me want to read up on the Inquisition and also the novel you had recommended earlier by Kaplan. I would like to read about a different point of view as well.

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    1. One of the books I have on my shelf also to read is the trilogy/omnibus by Jean Plaidy. It is non-fiction, so I don't know how easy it would be to read, but I am definitely looking forward to it.
      This is the edition I have.

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    2. Ooooh! Thanks for the link, Marie. I don't know why I missed these nonfiction Plaidys, I never even noticed these.I am going to have to hunt these down. I was at the library the other day trying to find some books on it, but wasn't sure about the authors so I didn't. These should be perfect as I devour anything Plaidy. It just may take me longer being nonfiction. Thanks!

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  9. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  10. So, I had posted a long comment, but I have deleted it because I really don't want to distract from how you react to the book. Again, I appreciate your selection of my book and I'm here if you have any questions, comments, or concerns you'd like me to address. Thanks!

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  11. As pointed out in the book, the Moors had a strategic position on the coast and it was much coveted. The Reconquista had been ongoing for over 700 years and Fernado and Isabella made it their goal to end it (in their favor). As for religion, even in this age Judaism, Islam and Christianity have trouble co-existing, so I have no doubt it was even more troublesome during this era.

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    1. Yea, I don't understand why we all just can't get along. ;) Everyone is entitled to their opinions, unfortunately though everyone also believes they were right.

      I wonder what it was that drove these two particular people to make such a lofty goal, since after 700 years others before them were unsuccessful... what was it that these two had that others didn't, for 700 years?

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    1. Christina, your comment was deleted but mentioned that you were enjoying The Last Queen... I am so glad you were able to get to that one too! That is my favorite Gortner read thus far. I loved Juana, and I felt very empathetic towards her. I wish I had the time to go back and re-read that, it's been over three years since I'd read it.

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  13. Yes, I am enjoying it! I deleted because i was afraid it could have been spoilerish.

    I wasn't sure how I would feel toward Juana because in The Queen's Vow, just from the snippets there I didn't really care for her. However, this is not the case now. I am well into The Last Queen and so far I really like her. It has also made me like Fernando more and Isabella less, and has softened my feelings toward Juana. This was the beginning part where they are still together in Spain as family before Juana goes to Flanders.

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